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Lineages, Results, and Analysis of Y-DNA Haplogroup R-1b1a-2a1a-1b4 (= R-L21) ROSEs
Group G of the ROSE DNA Project — plus Group 1 of the ROSS DNA Project
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Home		 Y-DNA Haplogroups Represented in the Project
E G I1 I2 J L Q R1a R1b T
The Kilravock ROSEs are a sought-after connection due to the family's fame and antiquity (see entry at Wikipedia).  Although R1b is the most common haplogroup in western Europe, especially in the British Isles (see maps), and even though deep SNP testing has shown them to be R-1b1a-2a1a-1b4 (a.k.a., R-L21), the most common subclade of Haplogroup R1b, the Group G haplotype remains uncommon. 
There is reason to believe the surname here was originally DE ROS or ROSS, and the Group G ROSEs of the ROSE DNA Project appear to be genetically connected to the Group 1 ROSSs of the ROSS DNA Project.
Given that the paper lineages in this family extend back into the 14th Century, there has been an opportunity for the accumulation of more mutations within the famlily than is typical for the average person being tested for genealogical purposes, which means it's especially important to test more markers.  The ROSS project has been rather effective in getting its members to upgrade to 67 markers.  I strongly recommend the ROSEs upgrade, too. 
To view more of the page without scrolling, temporarily reduce the text size in your browser. 
Red labels indicate markers that typically mutate more frequently than those labeled in black.
(Empty cells that are darkened indicate those tests have not been ordered.)
To view lineages, please scroll to the right.
GD = Genetic Distance, the number of mutation events separating two haplotypes. For the Group G Kilravock ROSEs, it's the GD from the test subject to the ROSE Group G modal haplotype.. For the Group 1 ROSSs, it's the GD from the test subject to the ROSS Group 1 modal haplotype.
G
R
O
U
P		 GD
(cumulative)		 Surname Kit # Ysearch
UserID		 Haplotype — as determined by STR testing Lineage
Markers 1-12 Markers 13-25 Markers 26-37 Markers 38-67 Advanced Markers
at
12		 at
25		 at
37		 at
67		 3
9
3		 3
9
0		 19
/
3
9
4		 3
9
1		 a
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3
8
5		 b
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3
8
5		 4
2
6		 3
8
8		 4
3
9		 i
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3
8
9		 3
9
2		 ii
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3
8
9		 4
5
8		 a
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4
5
9		 b
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4
5
9		 4
5
5		 4
5
4		 4
4
7		 4
3
7		 4
4
8		 4
4
9		 a
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4
6
4		 b
|
4
6
4		 c
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4
6
4		 d
|
4
6
4		 4
6
0		 H4
|
G
A
T
A		 IIa
|
Y
C
A		 IIb
|
Y
C
A		 4
5
6		 6
0
7		 5
7
6		 5
7
0		 a
|
C
D
Y		 b
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C
D
Y		 4
4
2		 4
3
8		 5
3
1		 5
7
8		 a
|
S1
3
9
5		 b
|
S1
3
9
5		 5
9
0		 5
3
7		 6
4
1		 4
7
2		 S1
4
0
6		 5
1
1		 4
2
5		 a
|
4
1
3		 b
|
4
1
3		 5
5
7		 5
9
4		 4
3
6		 4
9
0		 5
3
4		 4
5
0		 4
4
4		 4
8
1		 5
2
0		 4
4
6		 6
1
7		 5
6
8		 4
8
7		 5
7
2		 6
4
0		 4
9
2		 5
6
5		 4
6
1		 4
6
2		 A10
|
G
A
T
A		 C4
|
6
3
5		 GA
AT
1
B
0
7		 4
4
1		 4
4
5		 4
5
2		 4
6
3
R1b Modals XQJ7H 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 16 15 18 17 36 38 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 12 11 13 23 10 13 12 11 22 per Mike Walsh (as of 4 Jan 2011)
                     
G Kilravock ROSE Modals Z5EAR 14 25 14 11 10 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9  9 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 15 19 18 38 42 12 12 11 9 15 16 9 10 10 8 11 10 12 23 23 17 10 12 12 13 8 13 22 20 14 13 11 13 11 11 12 12 12 11 13 23 10 13 12 12 22 n=14 at 12;  n=13 at 25; n=11 at 37; n=4 at 67; n=1 for advanced markers
0       ROSE 1637   14 25 14 11 10 14 12 12 12 14 13 30                                                                                                                                 Pvt — Mr. ROSE — resident of Edinburgh, SCT
0 0 1   ROSE 42014   14 25 14 11 10 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9  9 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 15 19 18 38 39 12 12                                                                               Pvt… Charles4, Alexander3, Charles2, Rev. Robert1 ROSE (1704-1751) — immigrant to VA, desc/o the Barons of Kilravock
0 0 2   ROSE 108657   14 25 14 11 10 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9  9 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 15 18 18 38 43 12 12                                                                               Pvt… Thomas Stewart3, James2, Donald1 ROSE (c1727- ) — immigrant to Nova Scotia, desc/o the Barons of Kilravock
0 1 2 3 ROSE 124222 KT39P 14 25 14 11 10 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9  9 11 11 25 15 19 33 14 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 15 19 18 38 43 12 12 11 9 15 16 9 10 10 8 11 10 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 13 8 13 22 20 14 13 11 13 11 11 12 12                   Pvt… Barnabus3, Alexander2, Hugh1 ROSE (1738- ) — of Inverness, SCT
1 1 3 3 ROSE1 157117 PUZMQ 14 26 14 11 10 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9  9 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 15 19 20 38 43 12 12 11 9 15 16 9 10 10 8 11 10 12 23 23 17 10 12 12 13 8 13 22 20 14 13 11 13 11 11 12 12 12 11 13 23 10 13 12 12 22 Pvt7, Pvt6, Graham5, William Graham4, William Stevens3, John2, John1 ROSE (c1804- ) — of Peeblesshire, SCT
1 2     ROSE 6233   14 26 14 11 10 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9  9 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 15 17 18                                                                                                       Pvt… Alexander1 ROSE (1738-1807) — of Inverness, SCT, to VA in 1755, then NC
0 0 2   HOOPER 103459   14 25 14 11 10 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9  9 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 15 17 17 11 12 19 23 15 15 19 18 38 41 12 12                                                                               Pvt5, Pvt4, Johnson3, John2, Jesse1 HOOPER (1794-1872) of VA
0 0 2   MacNEIL 30172   14 25 14 11 10 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9  9 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 15 17 17 11 12 19 23 15 15 19 18 39 42 12 12                                                                               Pvt… Neil MacNEILL of Colonsay, SCT, and PEI
0 1 1 2 MacNEIL 37828   14 25 14 11 10 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9  9 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 15 17 14 11 11 19 23 15 15 19 18 38 42 12 12 11 9 15 16 9 10 10 8 11 10 12 23 23 17 10 12 12 13 8 14 22 20 14 13 11 13 11 11 12 12                   Pvt… Duncan MacNEILL of Colonsay, SCT, and Paisley, ON
1 1     ROSE 111798   14 25 14 11 10 15 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9  9 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 15 17 17                                                                                                       Pvt… John D.3, Edward William2, Alexander1 ROSE (c1860- ) — of Nova Scotia
1 1     ROSE 1999   14 25 14 10 10 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9  9 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 15 17 17                                                                                                       Pvt… Edmund4, Alexander3, Charles2, Rev. Robert1 ROSE (1704-1751) — immigrant to VA, desc/o the Barons of Kilravock
1 1 2 3 ROSE 5294 4M6NB 14 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9  9 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 15 18 18 38 42 12 12 11 9 16 16 9 10 10 8 11 10 12 23 23 17 10 12 12 13 8 13 23 20 14 13 11 13 11 11 12 12                   Pvt6, Pvt5, Kenneth Francis4, Robert3, David2, John1 ROSE (c1775- ) — of Angus, SCT
1 1 3   ROSE 10057   14 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9  9 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 15 19 19 38 41 12 12                                                                               Pvt… John2, James1 ROSE (1762- ) — of Inverness, SCT, to Delaware Co., NY
                     
? 2 3 5 6 ROSE 32119 43CEX 14 25 14 11 10 14 12 12 11 13 13 29 16 9  9 11 11 25 15 19 33 14 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 14 15 19 18 37 42 12 12 11 9 15 16 9 10 10 8 11 10 12 23 23 17 10 12 12 13 8 13 22 20 14 14 11 13 11 11 12 12                   Pvt… William3 (1862- ) of Warwickshire, ENG; William2 (1840- ) of Morayshire, SCT; William1 ROSE (1804- ) of Nairnshire, SCT
                     
1 ROSS Group 1 Modals   14 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9  9 11 11 25 15 19 32 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 15 19 18 37 40 12 12 11 9 15 16 9 10 10 8 11 10 12 23 23 17 10 12 12 13 8 13 22 20 14 13 11 13 11 11 12 12 12 11 13 23 10 13 12 12 22 n=18 at 12; n=17 at 25; n=13 at 37; n=9 at 67; n=3 for advanced markers
0       ROSS 116773   14 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30                                                                                                                                 Pvt…
0 0 2 2 ROSS 104294 NJKUR 14 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9  9 11 11 25 15 19 32 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 15 19 18 38 41 12 12 11 9 15 16 9 10 10 8 11 10 12 23 23 17 10 12 12 13 8 13 22 20 14 13 11 13 11 11 12 12                   Pvt7, Wallace D.6, Eric5, William4, William3, Joseph2, Joseph1 ROSS (c1760-c1811) — ENG > KY
0 0 1   ROSS FTDNA GVNRJ 14 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9  9 11 11 25 15 19 32 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 15 19 18 38 40 12 12                                                                               Pvt… John ROSS (1771-1851)
1 1 1+   ROSS A-DNA J5NYC 14 25 15 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9  9 11 11 25 15 19 32 15 15 17 17 11 11     15           12 12                                       13     14               12 11 13 23 10 13 12 12 22 Pvt… William ROSS of Tyrone, NIRL
0 0 1+   ROSS A-DNA S4P7Z 14 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9  9 11 11 25 15 19 32 15 15 17 17 12 11 19 23 15           12 12                                       13     14               12 11 13 23 10 13 12 12 22 Pvt… William ROSS (1784-1861) of Tyrone, NIRL
0 0 3 3 ROSS2 77904 D47KQ 14 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9  9 11 11 25 15 19 32 15 15 17 17 12 11 19 23 15 15 19 18 38 40 11 12 11 9 15 16 9 10 10 8 11 10 12 23 23 17 10 12 12 13 8 13 22 20 14 13 11 13 11 11 12 12 12 11 13 23 10 13 12 12 22 Pvt5, Pvt4, Pvt3, John James2, John1 ROSS (c1808-1892) — of co. Fermanagh, IRL
0 1 3 3 ROSS N60921   14 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9  9 12 11 25 15 19 32 15 15 17 17 12 11 19 23 15 15 19 18 38 40 12 12 11 9 15 16 9 10 10 8 11 10 12 23 23 17 10 12 12 13 8 13 22 20 14 13 11 13 11 11 12 12                   Pvt4, David3, Harold2, William1 ROSS (c1880s- ) — of PA?
0 1 1 3 ROSS 113641   14 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9  9 11 11 24 15 19 32 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 15 19 18 37 40 12 12 11 9 15 16 9 10 10 8 11 10 12 23 23 17 10 12 12 14 8 12 22 20 14 13 11 13 11 11 12 12                   Pvt5, John Francis4, John Francis3, James2, Francis1 ROSS (1838- ) — KY > IN 
0 1 1 4 ROSS 118391   14 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9  9 11 11 24 15 19 32 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 15 19 18 37 40 12 12 11 9 15 16 9 10 10 8 12 12 12 23 23 17 10 12 12 14 8 12 22 20 14 13 11 13 11 11 12 12                   Pvt5, James Thweatt4, James T.3, Benjamin L.2, John1 ROSS (c1766-c1805) — VA > GA
0 3 4 5 ROSS 27265   14 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9  9 11 11 24 15 19 33 15 15 15 17 11 11 19 23 15 15 19 18 37 41 12 12 11 9 15 16 9 10 10 8 11 10 12 23 23 17 10 12 12 14 8 12 22 20 14 13 11 13 11 11 12 12                   Pvt6, Pvt5, John Neal4, James William3, James Jackson2, John1 ROSS (c1790- ) — of TN and Madison Co., KY
0 2 3   ROSS3 146870   14 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9  9 11 11 24 15 19 32 15 17 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 15 19 18 37 41 12 12                                                                               Pvt…
1 2 4 6 ROSS 66032   14 25 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9  9 11 11 24 15 19 32 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 14 15 19 18 37 41 12 12 11 9 15 16 9 10 10 8 11 10 12 23 23 17 10 12 12 14 8 12 22 20 14 13 11 13 11 11 12 12                   Pvt…
1 2 3 5 ROSS 85388   14 25 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9  9 11 11 24 15 19 32 15 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 14 15 19 18 37 40 12 12 11 9 15 16 9 10 10 8 11 10 12 23 23 17 10 12 12 14 8 11 22 20 14 13 11 13 11 11 12 12                   Pvt8, Pvt7, Winn Johnson6, Winn J.5, Hosea B.4, John3, William2, William1 ROSS (c1702-1757) — IRL > Hampshire Co., (W)VA
1 4 5 7 ROSS 69010   14 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9  9 11 11 25 14 18 32 14 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 15 19 18 37 41 12 12 11 9 15 16 9 10 10 8 11 10 12 23 23 17 10 12 12 13 8 11 22 20 14 13 11 14 11 11 12 12                   Pvt5, James Archibald Campbell Tait4, James3, Thomas2, William1 ROSS (c1780s- ) — of Carlisle, ENG
0 1 5 7 ROSS 67596   14 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9  9 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 15 17 17 10 11 19 23 15 15 18 17 37 42 12 12 11 9 15 16 9 10 10 8 11 10 12 23 23 17 10 12 12 13 8 12 22 20 14 13 11 14 11 11 12 12                   Pvt5, Ernest4, Charles3, Thomas2, John1 ROSS (1807-1878) — of Blount Co., TN
1 2     ROSS 26579   14 25 14 11 10 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9  9 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 15 17 17                                                                                                       Pvt7, Thos. Russell Clayton6, Andrew Russell5, Robt. Russell4, Alexander Aitken3, Adam2, Adam1 ROSS — of Peeblesshire, SCT
1 2     ROSS 118243   14 25 14 11 10 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 16 9  9 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 15 17 17                                                                                                       Pvt5, Gordon Edwin4, William Edwin3, John Forster2, James1 (c1810s- ) — of IRL
1 2 5   ROSS 128907 V35SE 14 25 14 11 10 14 12 12 13 14 13 30 16 9  9 11 11 25 15 19 32 14 15 17 17 11 11 19 23 15 15 18 18 38 43 12 12                                                                               Pvt5, William Walter4, Charlie Price3, Abner Magiha2, John1 ROSS (1770s-c1847) — of Newton Co., MO
? 2 8 11 20 ROSS 145061   13 25 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9 11 11 11 25 15 19 31 14 15 15 16 11 11 19 23 16 15 18 18 37 37 12 12 11 9 15 16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23 23 16 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 15 12 11 13 11 11 12 12                   Pvt…
4 8     ROSS 6365   12 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9  9 11 11 25 15 19 29 15 15 16 17                                                                                                       Pvt5, Peter4, Howard3, Samuel Howard2, John1 ROSS (1828- ) — Aberdeen, SCT > Australia
                     
1Also tested at Ancestry.com.  2Also tested at Relative Genetics. 3Markers 38-67 pending.
If you trust my tabulation of the Genetic Differences (GD), you can skip this section; otherwise, read on.  Genetic differences in some multicopy markers are not necessarily counted the way they are for single-copy markers.  For example, any change in DYS385i is reflected in DYS385ii, so a change in both is considered a single mutation event, which is thereason I've greyed out the table cells for DYS385ii.  It should not be counted as a mutation event; only DYS385i should be counted.

Another multicopy marker that cannot be directly counted is DYS464(abcd).  To begin with, the real order of the copies is not known, so by convention they are simply reported lo-hi.  Reordering the markers so there is the least difference between the two hyplotypes gives a more more conservative view of their actual differences.  In addition, DYS464 is prone to two-step mutations, so even a difference of two at the same marker should be counted as a single mutation event.  For example, the mutation from 17 to 15 in DYS464c should be counted as a single mutation event, not two.

Lastly, CDYa and CDYb are volatile markers that can change by 1 to 4 repeats in a single mutation event, therefore any change of 4 or fewer markers is considered a single mutation event. In fact, these markers are so volatile in this family, giving them modal values and using those values to calculate genetic distance may be giving false genetic distances.
We remain frustrated here that more members have not tested a full 67 markers, especially that more ROSEs have not done so.  That the ROSS/ROSE surname is a comparatively old one appears to be reflected in genetic distances that are somewhat greater than usually encounted in a family descended from a single progenitor in genealogical time.  For this reason it remains more important than usual for every to test 67 markers because some of these distances are great enough to be less than a slam dunk match.  We need more "in-betweeners" to tie everyone together.  Everyone please upgrade!
I'm not convinced #32119 belongs with the Kilvarock ROSEs.  Please note his genetic distances from the family's modal haplotype compared to the others (and to the guidelines below).  It is especially concerning that he is a mis-match at four of the family's signature markers.  The RFA places him here, despite the low probability of his match (only 76%).  All the other ROSEs in Group G are matching at probabilities from 91-100%.   This individual has been deep SNP tested, and he is not just L21+, he is L513+.  This places him in a haplogroup subclade of R1b that is not currently recognized by FTDNA, but is recognized by ISOGG (see haplotree comparisons).  I urge any others whose results appear in this table to contact me and share their deep SNP test results.  Especially, does anyone else share the L513+ SNP?
The two MacNEILLs and the HOOPER apparently have NPEs in their patrilineal lines and are really ROSEs.  It's not insignificant that the former have no matches in the MacNEILL project, except with each other, and the latter has no match, at all, in the HOOPER project.
Although placed in Group 1 by the ROSS project, I don't believe #6365 or #145061 belong here (note their GD from the modal).  I didn't include them as part of the sample size (n) or for determining the modals for Group 1.
Data from Ancestry-DNA were adjusted using these conversion factors, adapted from the Ysearch Conversion Page:  DYS441, subtract 1; DYS442, subtract 5; GATA-H4, subtract 11; Y-GATA-A10, subtract 2.
Data Sources:
The ROSS Family DNA Project; Ysearch; email.
"Rose Family DNA Project Results — to November 10, 2008." Rose Family Bulletin (Dec 2008: 5305).
     
What constitutes a match?
Matches in other surnames are usually mere coincidence, so please ignore them — I'll let you know when you shouldn't!
For 12 markers:  9 or less is a non-relative; 10-12, please see this Chart compiled by FTDNA.
For 25 markers:  21 or less is a non-relative; 22-25, please see this Chart compiled by FTDNA.
For 37 markers:  31 or less is a non-relative; 32-37, please see this Chart compiled by FTDNA.
For 67 markers:  55 or less is a non-relative; 56-67, please see this Chart compiled by FTDNA.
For any test:  0 matching markers, please contact NASA.
 
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